| Comments: |
You know, I totally agree with you there.
manga nowadays seems to be ripoffs of ripoffs.
You have the gems out there (Naruto, Bleach, Shiro Miwa's Dogs, One Piece etc.) who are making unique takes on existing genres and then you have the countless amount of ripoffs which attempt to create their own final fantasy 7 like universe and fail miserably.
If there was anything I'd disagree with you on its comparing the industrial revolution to today.
There's been too many advancements for people to really suspend their disbeliefs to read a sci fi story.
No longer are there aliens on Mars or Flash Gordon style stories because people cannot really bring themselves to believe it.
However there have been books that have been really creative with the sci fi genre. (read Dan Simmons' Ilium or watch Babylon 5)
That's good sci fi. Sci fi where the heroes are still there and they make grand speeches, yet the essence of humanity is still present, we still have our racists and the greedy politicians but now in a n environment that's completely different to ours, but also the same in some ways.
Its because of the lack of true diversity in fantasy that I've made my manga a fantasy itself, but set in a 1920s like Shanghai environment and making it a spy thriller instead of a typical adventure story.
China also has 3000 years of history and culture to explore and such ideas have never really left the East except for the occasional kung fu movie which has forever placed a stereotype on Chinese film.
Best of luck with your ideas.
Sid
Hey, thanks for the encouragement Sid. And I don't read much Sci-fi -preferring the REALLY OLD stuff and movies. But I'll seek out your recommendations. Good luck with your reinvention too - I would like to see it. And yeah, China has a 4000 year history and it's something I'm doing a fantasy on too - but not on 1920s Shanghai, more on like Ancient Chinese history (Han dynasty).
And Flash Gordon would hardly count as "great" sci-fi. It's as corny as hell, and I would place it in the superhero comics section. It was always about caricatured people in a goofy space world blasting ray guns - something I consider cheesy sci-fi. When I spoke about the Industrial Revolution, I meant that sci-fi had it's ROOTS in the sense of exhiliration felt during the Industrial Revolution. I believe the golden age of sci-fi was the John W. Campbell era and Isaac Asimov with his "3 Laws of Robotics". I read some of his stories a LOOOONG time ago and can't remember much of it, but it was kinda like Arthur C. Clarke futuristic with a whole heap of logical nightmares thrown in.
I should pick it up again.
My story's physical environment is a 1920s style Shanghai city, but it takes a lot of influence from many of the ancient dynasties, Qin, Ming, Tang, Han and some concepts from the period of the three kingdoms.
I think a good story can have its influences and references as long as the main plot doesn't depend too much on them, unless its a philosophical message in the plot (ala matrix)
The thing with Flash Gordon and early 20th century pulp magazines was that sci fi hit its peak during that period where the popularity of science fiction reached everyone and these magazines could be purchased at news stands, stuff like this influenced George Lucas and other sci fi writers into doing a lot of stuff they do today.
A Princess of Mars and War of the Worlds were and still are regarded as masterpieces but they've since lost a lot of shine because no one can be brought to believe that aliens come from Mars.
I haven't read enough sci fi to actually form an opinion or a comment but the 60s and 70s would be the golden age. You have Dick, Heinlein, Assimov, Clarke, and Herbert to name a few hammering out these masterpieces which are still influencing people today.
Well, there ya go. Your 1920s Shanghai City sounds interesting. :)
I agree with you on several points Queenie.
The majority of science fiction & fantasy comics (manga/ manwha/ manhua/ American superheroes/ whatEVER) do not take things as far as they COULD and they DO tend to lack vision.
Often this is because the people that publish don't really want something terribly new and visionary; they want something safe and reliable. They want something that is familiar and relatable. And to tell grand sweeping stories usually takes some time and build-up that a publisher may not be able to afford these days. Also, since this type of safe storytelling is what fans are fed, this is what they know and what they, in turn, produce.
And someone else might say this but many people these days like to have things rooted in reality and like to have explanations for things--we live in a slightly less magical world now I'm afraid.
Make no mistake though: science fiction is absolutely supposed to be about ideas but it IS ALSO supposed to be about space babes on bikes.
What I am saying is that some of the best science fiction is reflective of modern times (whatever times those happen to be), rife with allegory and metaphor.
Not ALL the time mind you, but yes, sometimes you should throw a spacer bike babe in there. Don't forget these genres are also supposed to be entertaining as well as thought provoking and a good writer should often be able to do both.
And since you are speaking of other media besides comics:
Read the works of H.G. Wells and Jules Verne and root out the sociological concerns of the times in those books. The theme of Metropolis is the struggle between capital and labor in a city of the future. The divions of capital and labor is an idea that Europeans in the early 1920s were concerned about(Filmamker Fritz Lang was inspired by the New York Skyline as he was detained in New York Harbor as being suspected of being an "enemy alien" and brainstormed the story with his wife, Thea von Harbou, upon his return to Germany). Look at films like The Day the Earth Stood Still, Invasion of the Body Snatchers, and The Thing(or better still, find the original stories and books) and see the fear of Communism in 1950s America.
If you want sweeping grandeur and big speeches and spectacle then you should read old Flash Gordon comic strips. The roots of more realistic comic art is within those. Alex Raymond, the original artist/writer on that strip is the first artist to do more realistic, less cartoony characters in comics EVER. And while you look for that, look for the original Star Trek TV show as well which was really just "Horatio Hornblower" in space but touched on racism, freedom of speech, questions of what it was to be human, what it was to feel, and sometimes to just tell an interesting silly story.
You're familiar with Osamu Tezuka's works: those're some great SF & fantasy comics right there. Bold and visionary.
Just as an aside, my opinion is you should look back at ALL (or as much as you can) that has come before you and as much of what is around you now as you prepare to go forward.
I know that sounds a bit mimsy but I do believe it.
Science fiction & fantasy are great genres and yes, you should be bold and you should be visionary when writing/drawing these things. It makes me really want to read your manga "The Dreaming" now.
I come off like Mr. BIg Lecturer here don't I? I don't mean to. Often LJ comments sound too much like somebody is just giving you their two cents to hear themselves type and if my comment sounds like I'm saying "what do you know?" or something, that is not my intent.
I agree with everything you said, James. My article was a bit of a rant and I'll probably rewrite parts of it into a real essay later on, as some arguments were done in a rush. When I get my thoughts back together I'll tweak it a bit to make it into a proper and informative essay. Thanks for your input. :D
And yes, market concerns are always what drives the products on the shelves. And I got no problems with space babes in serious works - in fact, I've never been a supporter of dry-and-deadly-serious works of art. Those Ivory Tower English professors at Cambridge, eat my shorts. I believe all great works should have some element of popular appeal, because if you truly have something important to say, you should try and say it in a way that appeals to as many people as possible. In that case making your works entertaining is mandatory. I always try and make sure my works appeal to anyone who cares. However, what I find different nowadays as opposed to, say, 30 years ago is the power of consumerism.
I should have written about this in my rant as it was hanging in the back of my head, but the rise of a rampant consumerist culture is part of the reason why there is so much junk on the shelves. In the times of Metropolis (the movie), it was easier to get such movies made because movie studios back then were more willing to support "different" works. Fritz Lang's Metropolis was a total box office flop, but he was still able to continue making movies. These days, studios invest $100 million in a movie, $200 million in advertising campaigns, and to get that money back they make sure the final product appeals to EVERYONE, including idiots. This knocks down the chances of more thought-provoking works being made.
Some may argue it's ALWAYS been like this, and that's true, but not to the extent that things are at nowadays. Big Business has turned everything into commodities. It's not good enough you be a 9 year-old kid in 2004 anymore, you have to belong to a "demographic", which dictates what things will be sold to you, what you should wear, how you should talk, and what you should read and think. It's worrying as it curbs curiosity, and causes people to not question the world as much. This means that it'll make it more difficult for writers that concentrate on being different and inventive to succeed. And then, people like me go crazy. (BAD) XD
Heck, maybe it's high time for another "1984"-like story.
And I try to look as much as I can from the past as possible - like you say, it's very important that someone does before they embark on doing something new. Next on my 10-foot high reading list is "1001 movies you must see in your lifetime", followed by the "Ramayana", Classical Chinese version of "Journey to the West", The complete works of Edgar Allan Poe (and then Oscar Wilde), and way down the list would be Isaac Asimov's stories *dies*. There is so much to do... which can be frustrating but it makes me smile when I think there are always more to learn.
And gorsh, I hope no one has too-high expectations of "The Dreaming"! O_O I'll be happy for it to be something DIFFERENT; just not a cheap knock-off of what's already out there. I just hope people would take an interest in it. My expecations of it is modest. I DO try my hardest though.
PS. And ofcourse Tezuka's sci-fi work is visionary. :D I was thinking of him when I wrote my little rant.
(manga/ manwha/ manhua/ American superheroes/ whatEVER)
LOL. I don't think anybody knows what to call anything anymore.
That was an excellent read, Queenie. :) I found myself nodding vigorously through every point.
What I personally find lacking in many modern stories is theme. While I remember rolling my eyes at my English teachers, trying to get us to find the deeper meaning behind the classics, I realize now that's really what makes the classics so great. They had something to say!
Some of the most obvious examples would be classic dystopias. Brave New World. 1984. Fahrenheit 451. The short story worlds of The Illustrated Man. The creators of these stories were lashing out at the world they lived in, showing that what many would consider ideal, isn't really ideal at all. In fact, quite the opposite. These were works of vision.
You just don't see literature like that anymore.
Honestly, I feel that the best books I've read are the ones that criticize human behavior and culture. The greatest novelist were fearless, bold, and unafraid of changing peoples' opinions. Sci-Fi and Fantasy writers would do well to think of these things when writing their books. Instead of attempting to create merely new settings, they should think also of culture and human interaction.
Modern sci-fi is like watching a regular soap opera, but on spaceships and a few dragons thrown in. The culture and the people don't change, just where they are.
Out of novels and films, manga is the PERFECT place for the expression of boundless ideas and imagery without regard for the tenacious grip of reality. Hopefully there will be others to do the same too.
I'm with you on that. While I'm not much of a fantasy/sci-fi writer, I do hope that my modern worlds have room to show 'boundless ideas' on a different level . . . more on the level of the human psyche, and those thoughts and differences between people that remain unexplored in the realm of fiction.
I look forward to your manga, Queenie. I have a feeling that you're really going to blow a lot of people away. IMHO, I see in you the same ambition and drive that makes the 'great' climb to the ranks of the 'greatest.'
Sure modern worlds have room to show 'boundless ideas' - ideas are not in any way connected to future dystopias or fantasy worlds. Alfred Hitchcock's movies are remembered as some of the greatest as they should - and guess what, he never directed a fantasy or sci-fi movie. His movies were all thrillers, yes, but they are set in the modern world, the very best with the psychological motivations of his characters (and not so much the plot) as the crux. So you can work just as well in the modern world as you can in some other world.
I just like seeing (and drawing) bizarre landscapes, that's all. I'm sure you're on your way to writing/drawing a great work of modern fiction - ambition and vision is what will bring you a step closer. Knowing WHY others fail will also bring you another step closer. You've got both, and it'll take time, but I believe you have it in you to succeed. :D
As for "The Dreaming"... EEEE!! My expectations are modest. I just hope right now I don't disappoint - I do my best, but who knows? I'm only 24, and this is only my first published work. My #1 concern right now is to make it entertaining and intriguing for readers - that's hard enough as it is! XD Thanks for your support though (and Jame's). I feel all warm and fuzzy now (if not relieved).
Well... mostly I hope "The Dreaming" is everything YOU want it to be, but I will look forward to seeing what you bring forth.
"the "Ramayana", Classical Chinese version of "Journey to the West""
Man, I LOVE "Journey to The West"! I got the translated version when I was 13 and it was so hard to get through that first time. I saw various incarnations of it as cartoons when I was growing up in Japan and when I learned it was an actual book I went on this quest trying to track it down. I was not satisfied with those 100page versions where our protagonists are named "monkey", "pigsy" and "sandy"--what was that crap? My dad finally found me a version that was the original full length story. I must have spent more than six months trying to cram it and the annotations into my head. I've read it a few times since and as I've grown older and learned more history have come to appreciate the parodies and homages in the story.
"(manga/ manwha/ manhua/ American superheroes/ whatEVER)
LOL. I don't think anybody knows what to call anything anymore."
Heh! ^__^ It seems like that these days doesn't it? I actually did mean them as the individual styles of their countries of origin, and put in American Superheroes since it is the most prevalent type of comic in the American consciousness.
I DO like Rikki Simons calling "manga" a school of thinking and aesthetics just as valid as cubism, dadaism, and expressionism though...
"Sci-Fi and Fantasy writers would do well to think of these things when writing their books. Instead of attempting to create merely new settings, they should think also of culture and human interaction.
Modern sci-fi is like watching a regular soap opera, but on spaceships and a few dragons thrown in. The culture and the people don't change, just where they are."
Now by THIS, you are referring to SFand fantasy comics and probably the more lazy, LCD, homegenized, blandified video entertainment right? ^_~
Because there are still many great SF&Fantasy writers writing stories.
As for the hopes that Rivkah and Queenie are able to produce meaningful well thought out entertainment that makes you yourself think ...
Well it's hard. I have these ideas, these vehicles for saying things I want to say and feel should be said but when I look at what's come before me I hesitate. There is my perspective, my Voice in telling a story of course, but can I say something that hasn't been said better before?
As an example: my stalled out "Baker By Night" idea. Can I say anything new and different that hasn't been said in a manga format that hasn't been said in (Ransom Sampling from my bookshelf) Hot Gimmick, Swan, Your and My Secret, Club 9, Tramps Like Us, Couple, Othello, or Girl Got Game? (Luckily I looked at the "Shoujo" shelf and not the shelves of "revisionist shonen hero" manga, "gag strips", or "yaoi".)
I LOVE the idea of a "manga" school of art. I really do. I think it explains all that crap people are fighting over these days.
You said: As for the hopes that Rivkah and Queenie are able to produce meaningful well thought out entertainment that makes you yourself think ...
Well it's hard. I have these ideas, these vehicles for saying things I want to say and feel should be said but when I look at what's come before me I hesitate. There is my perspective, my Voice in telling a story of course, but can I say something that hasn't been said better before?
As an example: my stalled out "Baker By Night" idea. Can I say anything new and different that hasn't been said in a manga format that hasn't been said in (Ransom Sampling from my bookshelf) Hot Gimmick, Swan, Your and My Secret, Club 9, Tramps Like Us, Couple, Othello, or Girl Got Game? (Luckily I looked at the "Shoujo" shelf and not the shelves of "revisionist shonen hero" manga, "gag strips", or "yaoi".)
This is important. I'm thinking of writing another, hopefully more thought-out rant about the so-called "agony" of artists like myself, and it seems you too. Ofcourse I want to write deep and meaningful, thoughtful entertainment (as opposed to deep and meaningful dull entertainment). And ofcourse I worry about whether I can do anything at all better than the old masters, and whether anyone would read my work at the end of the day, even. I accept that there IS nothing I can say that hasn't been beautifully said before, but does that mean I shouldn't continue with what I do? I can see myself, petrified in front of THAT blank piece of paper, worried that I may die without leaving a mark on the world, but also worried that my talents will inevitably fall short of what I want to accomplish. Well, time to write another crazed rant.
Here's a wonderful quote from a screenwriting professor - "The worst movie ever made is better than the best script ever written". Better to continually turn stuff out in the hope that I may eventually score something rather than sit wondering if I EVER will score anything.
Well, I've been disappointed by a lot of this for a long time. But I've enjoyed some stuff by Neil Gaiman, and I used to worship the ground that Terry Pratchett walks on.
And if you still have this issue with the genres in general, do what I'm doing and write a Fantasy that is something else. ^_^
By the way, I'm friending you now. It's nice to have a fellow manga-writer around whom I share some opinions with (though I've still got some catching up to do).
Sure. :) Good luck with your story.
And I've always been a fan of Neil Gaiman. I haven't seen anything by Terry Pratchett though - what does he do? (Discworld?).
Yeah, Terry Pratchett does the Discworld series. It's comic fantasy.
He also has written a some children's sci-fi/fantasy, as well as Good Omens with Neil Gaiman.
From: (Anonymous)
2005-11-17 02:46 am (UTC)
| (Link)
|
fantasy is fantasy...meaning not real...doesn't matter if india existed or not...if it does in a person's story then it does...elves aren't real...but they are used in stories anyway and people do not question the validity of a fantasy story based on that...i don't think fantasy can be categorized...but most people see it as knights in shining armor and godly archers
that's just about the only part i disagree with in your rant. :P | |
![[info]](http://p-stat.livejournal.com/img/userinfo.gif){kind=small}
queeniechan's journal
determined