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Thanks... :D But progress is absolutely limping. Thanks to all the other promotional stuff I have left to do, this is somewhat crawling around the background. But it's wonderful to have a diversion... a kinda pet project around.

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There aren't many US superhero properties that'd have crossover appeal to manga fans, and really I think Marvel/DC are best keeping at what they do with their superhero lines. There are people who will get into that fandom, via movies and video games and toys of the characters, and it'll keep stable/growing, but it's not likely to tap into much of the manga market [you'll notice that Seinen action titles, who have the same target as a lot of US superhero books, tend not to be big sellers].
That said, I think DC has the best chance to break into the market, as they have the most diverse content. Their kid's digests based on various DC/WB cartoon series are great for kids who aren't old enough for most manga yet, and their Vertigo line is probably heading towards making more B+W OGN's like the 2 Death ones. I've noticed that a LOT of my manga friends have started discovering Neil Gaiman's Sandman [and TPop's MirrorMask license may helps these things along]. It's not so much a format thing sometimes as it is a content thing, and there's a lot of Vertigo titles that'd appeal to older manga fans.

All that Indy Comics need are more exposure in Anime fandom, and a lot of the non-artier ones will probably catch on with US fans, like Oni's catalogue, Slave Labour's stuff [which has via hOT tOPIC] and assorted selfpublished stuff like Quicken Foribidden and Finder. [Arty Comics (ie- the majority of Fantagraphics catalogue), like Arty Manga (Viz has published a lot of this stuff on the side), ultimately fill a smaller niche, but a very cool one which should have more people in it :) It'll probably grow as Manga Readers age more, and want more mature content]

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PS- i do totally agree with everything you said though :) As much as I like X-men, I don't think it has much room for readership growth/expansion, just enough to keep it from dying off [ie- younger fans replacing older ones]. I mean, it's not like they're doing that badly with the higher selling titles at 100000 copies a month, and the poorer ones at 20000 or so. The millions sold in tghe early 90's was mostly due to a speculators market [ie- Pokemon cards], and it was an artificial growth that sadly stunted the audience afterwards. As for the content, It's something that appeals to a very differetn audience then say Chobits or KareKano, and trying to go half way just means that their current target audience is more or less getting ignored. If anything, I'd say Marvel'ld do best with original concepts aimed at their core audience, older teen males/early 20's adults, and keep at that. And I imagine that TokyoPop and VIZ'll likewise eventually hit a place where their sales/readership stabilize. The real place for growth is Indy comics.

As it is the whole manga fandom is still quite new as a whole, so god knows where it'll go either way :) Your Sports Manga comparison really hit the core though.

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I agree that TP and Viz will probably stabilize in the future (hopefully not until I sell at least SOME of my books). :p And there is much potential to be seen in indy comics, especially online. You know, I really wish companies like Marvel and DC will really give a greater push to indy comics. I know that sounds totally whacked, but the superhero camp and the indy comics camp always seem to be loggerheads with each other. What's up with that? No doubt there is a long history behind this, but they're basically fighting over the same audience. There's always more potential to reach out to non-readers and make converts.

What I really wish is that we'll all recognise that manga or superheroes or indy comics, they're all sequential art. And each of these camps being hostile to each other really is meaningless.

And which Seinen action titles haven't been doing well? Can you give me a few names? (I haven't been paying much attention to sale figures...) :p

PS. And the Sandman RAWKS. It was probably the first non-manga I got into and it really opened doors. I try and ply my sister with it, but apparently she loves manga but hates reading large blocks of text (she loves CLAMP - very telling, eh?).

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To be honest, the ignorance of the Western comics market when it comes to "What Makes Manga Sells" can really baffle me.

It's not ignorance, its arrogance. They've never had to contended with a market share more female than male, and what males are there nowadays, aren't bucking up for the price of manga. ^_^. Comic book shops existed on the graces of men who were willing to pay up to 3$ a book on stapled comic which now come in color [wow in color, I am will to pay 4$ for this Star Wars comic because it's in color!] First off, for some reason or other-perhaps the legion of established manga fen are used to books from Japan-most female fans view all staple books as ghetto.

You can see why a lot of these manga fans have zero interest in stuff like Batman and X-men Never got into those titles, but I was a die hard Wonder Woman fan in the times of Jimenez when he took her out of the real world and placed in the soap opera's of Greek Mythology. Greg Rucka [an animation writer whose storytelling style is very cinematic] has picked up the series again and done just that. Alas, I've gone back to buying Wonder Woman again. But please of please don't mangat-ize my Wonder Woman. I saw the Batman and Spider Man in Japan. They were awful! They don't get it anymore than we do. ^_^

I think another issue with DC and Marvel in particular is this: the men running these companies aren't like DH's Richardson. These men are from the school of thinking all comics still belong in the hands of kids and so more often than not will tend to market for them – just look at DC, now that they have 'property of Warner Brothers' stamped on their butts, it's no wonder one of their biggest selling titles is Teen Titans GO! and not the traditional Teen Titans. 0_o. Until they realize manga in America is 'not' a kids market, they will continue to let the Diamond reps do their thinking for them...a bad move on any publisher's part IMHO. Diamond has its uses, but one must never count on their being in touch with the manga community.

I can see Diamond now when it comes to BL titles...hmm...let's push this at the GAY market...yeah yeah, the Gay men's market yeah... Hello? There is none. Gay men, like their straight counterpart, like the 3$ staple-books and for the most part aren't into BL not really meant for them. Oy.

^_^
Thanks for picking this up here; I never seem to get much response from Rivkah.

-G

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No problem. :D Hello there.

But please of please don't mangat-ize my Wonder Woman. I saw the Batman and Spider Man in Japan. They were awful! They don't get it anymore than we do. ^_^

I am TOTALLY against manga-ising any superheroes, Wonder Woman included. Sandman included too. It's like making live-action DragonBall - I'm grateful it never happened. :( Personally, superheroes are FINE as they are, and I would HATE to see the Western comics style of storytelling all become manga-fied. It IS easier to read manga, BUT that doesn't mean we can't afford some diversity in the marketplace. That's why I was so disturbed by the manga-ised Sandman. It's certainly not bad work - but the story-telling in Sandman was FINE. It's not manga-like, but then it shouldn't be. [/rant]

What we need is different GENRES, not repackaging of the same guys in spandex. That is the one thing DC and Marvel never seems to fully understand (probably because it means going into unknown territory). Perhaps you've read my ham-first essays about the older comics industry - http://www.livejournal.com/~queeniechan/13287.html (the part about History of Comics). What I want to see happen is Western Comics returning to the diversity they had in the Post-WW2 era. It was an industry in its infancy, but cut off by a number of factors... and what a pity. I recently flipped through some of the older EC Horror comics (reprints) at Kinokuniya, like "Dracula". And man, it was trashy, but it was enjoyable trash - like Hammer horror films, AND like alot of manga series. Mind Candy. It's no bad thing, you know - it keeps the readers in.

As for the BL line, it will probably die a horrible death in the Direct market, while flying off the shelves in bookstores. And probably also attract a whole stack of lawsuits in the southern states. :D

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As for the BL line, it will probably die a horrible death in the Direct market, while flying off the shelves in bookstores. And probably also attract a whole stack of lawsuits in the southern states. :D

Yeah I am waiting for this also. It seems american creators of slash OEL work [I DO NOT MAKE YAOI/BL! >_<]will at least have the constitution wrapped around our books on the shelves in the gay/lesbian section of your average retail outlet. XDD I swear I see Diamond trying to thwart this by shofting BL publishing toward the gay market which just isn't there. Pre-emptive ass covering. What I find interesting is that while acquiring licenses of manga-ka's original works, DMP has managed to get its hands on and sell doujinshi by these same artists on their site at yaoi-whatever it is...shame on me...-yaoimanga.com?? Yes I think the BL market will forever be confined to online sales and bookstores.

Oh that Hammer trash was great story telling though, you know! Those pulp comic were great, but gone are those Marvel/DC days of assigning four people to one book or line. There is just not enough money in comics right now to get away with it, that's why 'creator teams' are being sought with such ferocity by some companies and creators who are capable of 'story/art' are also beeing tapped while others are ignored. Creators are an investment now, not just their stories. It's funny, but I think DH and Image were going this ages ago. 0_o.

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Actually, there was a Hong Kong live action DragonBall movie. It was BAD. I think Vertigo was DC's attempt to bring back horror comics, and it somehow became their mature fantasy line [i LOVE Fables to death, yes I do]

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Thanks for picking this up here; I never seem to get much response from Rivkah.

Sorry. ;_; I've been bouncing all over the place lately (getting ready for Chicago), though I'm still reading everything. It always takes me a while to get my thoughts together for an appropriate response, and sometimes other people say it better than I could.

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I am shocked you're still here ^__^? Why are you not in Chicago already! XDDD That's ok. Not too terribly upset, I wasn't trying to harp in your thread, but just poke in an opposing viewpoint.

Good luck, you'll like WW Cons, they are hectic, but fun.

-G

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Actually, the better comic book shops are the ones that strive to get audiences outside of boy-men. The one I'm frequenting when I move, Strange Adventures is fantastic. TONS of trade paperbacks and GN's in stock, a diverse amount of monthly comic periodicals [ie- Not just Marvel/DC stuff]. Assorted Japanese imports, and tons of toys and videos and cards etc relating to various fandoms, with comics as the core buisness. And of course back issues [don't overlook back isses though- nowadays it's mostly a cheaper way to check out older stuff]
You'll notice that both VIZ and TPop's marketshares are steadily increasing on Diamond's site, adn I imagine it's due to more and more shops ordering it. It's not so much Diamond's bias [Diamond supports any and all publishers and are responsible for importing A LOT of the Japanese toys and Art Books you can get at retailers online and offline... check out their international section], as well as being a place for smaller publishers to thrive [pluys, with Diamond- NO RETURNS- so what you sell is what you sell, and you tend to haev less risk]

As for a MangaStyle Wonder Woman, well the original golden age era books had very cartoony art style, and I'd love to see Wonder Woman be reworked someday in a more animated style. A cheezy "let's make her japanese and a ninja!" manga-ization of WW would be awful. But a WWoman series reworked with some Shoujo influences would be interesting [ala the Death OGN's, which are really good stuff]. Kinda like Teen Titans Go [whose comic actually doesn't sell as well as the current Teen Titans ongoing, and cant' compare to the 80's version which was DC's bestselling book at the time. But it's digest editions are doing well enough to keep seeing new collections, which is good to see :)]... I wonder if it's just as common in Japan for people to watch an animated verison of a comic and never read the manga? [I know a lot of US anime fans who do this, so I imagine it's common]

Diamond is actually the book store distributor for Digital Manga's line of Yaoi Books [they are for a LOT of smaller publishers], and any comic shop you ask would probably have no problems ordering the books for you if you're having problems getting them at retail. My old comic shop, which was a total Marvel/DC joint [though they do stock some manga] had no problems ordering me any obscure thing that Diamond stocked [like Angelic Layer Vol.5 in Japanese :)]

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I was bashing Diamond jeepersjournal...I do question their reps 'in the know' status, and along with charging for distributorship they do offer market research and advice...but I feel what they tried to do at the start of the manga boom was halted by vendors. I wrote about it here:
http://gynocrat.deviantart.com/journal/5238008/

VIZ and TPop's marketshares are steadily increasing on Diamond's site Well of course, comic shop owners are now ordering instead of resisting. No one shoots themselves in the foot on purpose. ^_^. It was never Diamond's bias, it was shop owner's early resistance. As for my call about about their reps being out of touch on BL, I stand by that-I think they will make a push to try and steer said titles by smaller publishers toward the Gay market, which really isn't there.

But a WWoman series reworked with some Shoujo influences would be interesting [ala the Death OGN's, which are really good stuff]. No never please. Have you read the latest Wonder Woman by Greg Rucka? Rag Morales design is just fine thanks!

I was speaking of DC's marketing to kids and Teen Titans GO, last I heard, was their biggest seller to kids. ^_^. Sorry I didn't clarify.

I wonder if it's just as common in Japan for people to watch an animated verison of a comic and never read the manga? Actually I heard it's quite the opposite. Literary success often determines an animation's success- unless it begins as an anime first. I can tell you, Studio Bones Wolf's Rain is a perfect example of a great animation with a lousy follow up manga. Normally the manga comes first.

Diamond is actually the book store distributor for Digital Manga's line of Yaoi Books Diamond is the defacto distributor for all of DMP's titles - and were so before they began the yaoi line- they are contractually obilgated in their case-yet I have yet to see one manga shop with a DMP yaoi title. I find them in Walden, Borders, and on Amazon. Now Diamond did just sign North-American Publisher Yaoi Press - this is actually the first all BL only publisher I've seen distributed by Diamond, I hope it works out well and they don't try to push them at that phantom 'gay market'. ^___^

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Please... no more re-imaginings or re-inventions... ;_;

It's not as if Hollywood wasn't doing it enough. That's why I'm placing my hopes in indy comics. >_

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Yeah. I'm rather tired of all of those superheroes... They might be able to do something inspiring with X-Men (because that's not a "masked vigilante" story), but other than that...

I used to like superhero stuff when I was younger, but that was only because, in cartoons, the serial story style (as opposed to episodic) was much deeper and more exciting than something like Action Man could ever be. But it's still awfully cheesy. I was even turned off by several parts of Sandman because they felt a bit too superhero-ish.

Manga will win, because manga treats the comic format as a medium -- not a genre.

By the way, for a good sports comic you might want to read a little of: http://www.readmanga.com/ (Look at H2).

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Actually, I'm a big fan of Adatchi Mitsuru. :) Yes, he writes sports manga, but for some reason I never see them as sports manga. Probably because he doesn't use that "Japanese sports philosophy" thing; at least not overtly. I see his work as romance stories with sport elements.

I haven't read H2, but Touch is his masterpiece. :D I own the whole set.

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Wow, long post. I read it all though, since thes types of debates really interest me. I actually love superhero comics... Depending on the superhero. I really love Spider-Man's story and how he isn't being a superhero because he wants to but because he feels has the responsibility to. It's even the classic "to get revenge" story, but Spider-Man gets his revenge in a different way that doesn't seem as cliched. Spider-Man and Batman are the only stories I really keep up with though in the superhero genre. >> Just the stories though... Not the movies. O.o

And I really like the Link picture. :3 Link is teh r0x0rz.

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There are some good superhero stories - it's a legitimate genre of its own, and every form has its fans. I just happen to dislike superheroes, but I wouldn't watch the Batman and Spiderman stories if I didn't think their stories had a strong archetypal appeal. But quite frankly, Spiderman and Batman are one of the rarer superhero stories - better because they defined the genre and had elements of strong originality in them. Can't say the same for other superheroes out there, and I believe you'll agree. :p

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This is being beat to death lately, but the comment Manga will Win defintely got to me. It's not a competition...you know.

This has reared it's ugly head at DMP forums also - where discussion began about OEL and Tokyo Pop's releasing of it, of course I came out swining on this poor girl because of some of the things she said- it wasn't fair of me but I am so tired of the concept it must be manga or it must be comics and never the twain shall meet.

http://www.dmpbooks.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=495

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Gorsh, I looked at that thread and was a bit shocked. It's the first time I've seen someone speak honestly and candidly about what they think about OEL manga. They all seem to be hardcore shoujo fans though, and I can see where their resistence comes from. But I was SHOCKED by them saying that the art of "I Luv Halloween" was UGLY. It's not ugly... it's a completely different style. :O It was a good example of manga and comics meeting too - so I'm genuine stumped at why they're saying it's ugly. :(

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Can I be added tyo your friends list? I saw the link to your site on Rivkah's site and I love your art. I'm trying to be a manga writer too!

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Sure! Do a "friend" exchange. :D Thanks for your comments too!

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Not that I'm disagreeing with you in general (and I do agree that US comics just don't get manga, and that there's something wrong with the US comic industry), but even the multimedia attack of anime/manga is subject to debate. I mean the bigger publishers like Marvel/DC (unfortunately not the indies) do have tie-ups with other media like movies, cartoons, video games, conventions, even novelizations, so I don't think it's a matter of technique (although of course, the cosplay community is very different from the convention attendees of a comic con). I don't think the superhero popularity (in the US) is a stand-alone thing. I do agree though with you that it's a matter of diversity. You can put a couple of manga fans in the same room and they'll have different likes and dislikes. It's not a general concensus like the superhero genre where a lot of fans like, say, Batman (although the fans will have their favorites and will argue who would win if each one duked it out).

On a side note, right now there is movement on DC and Marvel to expand rather than depend on their old tropes. I'm not out to convince you to read Western comics again despite it being a superhero genre, but in the same way that Watchmen and Slam Dunk "trascended" (I honestly wouldn't consider it transcend, but rather it didn't use old formula or tropes in their narratives... I mean other sports genre manga/anime are just as character-driven as Slam Dunk, or you could dislike them because they're as old school as say, Captain Tsubasa) their genres, so too are some of DC/Marvel's latest titles, despite retaining their superhero main-genre (and instead having lots of sub-genres). DC's current storyarc is actually more dangerous and a bit more gritty than campy Adam West-Batman, so their stories are evolving (that's not to say you should pick up a comic and start reading). Not that that solves the issue of getting non-superhero fans to read superhero comics, but at least that genre is maturing (Thank God).

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You're definately right about Marvel/DC having tie-ins with their work, but what I do want to say is that these tie-ins are nowhere near as tight-knit as interconnected as that of the anime/manga communities. And yet, as you say, the people in the japan-pop communities are more likely to have diverse interests than the people you normally see in the superhero market.

And personally speaking, superheroes have been evolving for many years. The superheroes of yesteryear are quite different to these of nowadays - they're grittier, more cynical and less black-and-white (think "The Phantom", and all those mortal superheroes that rely only on fancy costumes and a few sidekicks to fight evil). But then I'm talking the 1940s compared to now - and personally, I think superheroes have matured to a point where it's difficult to keep re-inventing the genre and keep it fresh. Or maybe I should just say I want to see DC and Marvel write Adventure stories or something - just stories in another genre!! XD

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